Emperor's relative wants looted treasures returned

Alternative titles:
"Yellow Dick" calls on France to give back head(s)

Couldn't he get even better stuff if he sued the Chinese government, the Taiwan government, or the numerous private individuals in China that have the imperial family's things?

french court rejected the case last night.

the lawyer couldn't possibly be ignorant of the 150 years timespan, yet he still took it on, the way I see it, a publicity stunt, much like the lawyer who sued cnn earlier last year.

I see some hypocrisy here, if the government wants it back so dearly why can't it just buy?? it is for public auction, unlike the ones in museum where you can only rob.

Yes, mike. He could get plenty of "better stuff", including a free trip to Heilongjiang, including full board and re-education expenses + a haircut.

So who the f**k do I have to loot to kill, or kill to loot?

PolyGroup (PLA owned) bought some bronze heads at auction a few years ago in HK. Why not have them step up to the plate again for China's honor??

The government would never buy these relics back as it would be a huge loss of face to actually purchase something which is rightfully theirs in the first place.

Let's not get into the fact that they would either be in Taiwan or have been left on the mainland for those idiotic and jingoistic little red guards to have vandalised in the CR.

Anyway, don't these Chinese corps and 'anonymous Chinese businessman' buy back these relics to curry favour and build guanxi with the gov't and no doubt get a 'get out of jail free card' next time the taxman or corruption investigation team come knocking.

Dror... point taken, although a bit dramatic. But, why not sue the numerous private individuals who have huge collection of imperial family treasures?

fact is, all the real stuff are in Taiwan's 故宫博物院, those in the french or british museums are only crap.

communist party has made many requests to see them in Taiwan but got repeatedly denied entry. I guess they will shit their pants when they see them. haha.

Peteryang: China is trying to get the stuff back form Taiwan, together with the rest of the island+people.

The Palace Museum in TW is in a lovely setting with nicely laid out displays that are well lit, accessible and lacking in politicized, propaganda laced commentary.

The fact that more people around the world got their first taste of real Chinese culture and history from this venue (mainly in the 60s, 70s and 80s) while the Mainland Chinese were running around amok destroying real Chinese culture should make us appreciate "Generalissimo" CKS ;^)

Thank goodness.

@Dror

the "getting back" won't happen any time soon, the mainland government just got off their high horse, and luckily the nationalist party is in charge of taiwan now, things just keep getting better but still a hell of a job ahead, political and social reconciliation between two societies with fundamentally different value might take some 50 years if you ask me.

as for the relics, whoever the buyer is, he is definitely an idiot because the crap just aint worth 200 million euros. talk about dumbass parvenu here.

ok, a bit annoyed by those who praised Taiwan have better protected and promoted Chinese culture via their better 故宫博物院. A couple of years ago, a foreign classmate of mine raised the issue that how Taiwan government have prevented those artefacts from being destroyed by Red Guards during the Cultural Revolution. My question is, what was the purpose of the Guomindang's action of bringing those 'culture' to Taiwan? They predicted that after several decades mainland China would start the mass destruction of 'culture' right?

Ok, I am not a patriot, or you may think I am one of the Brain-washed kids. But I do know that to stop the Red Guards to approach the Forbidden City, Premier Zhou ordered troops to safeguard the place. I knew so many foreigners have resentment feeling about cultural revolution, so do us- ordinary Chinese. It was a disaster towards human race indeed, but ask those Red Guards, do they know what they were doing back then? They were restless and blinded, was is it just like those Rock Punk blokes smashing their guitars on the stage?

Yes, send the Iraq national library's collection to Taiwan, ship the Buddhas of Bamiyan(destroyed by Taliban) to Taiwan, for it is the holy land of cultural protection...

Ok, a bit out of my mind, please forgive me. And please admit that the two things were indeed LOOTED, actually I wonder what do they write in French history text book about the looting...

My suggestion is yes keep making the fuss out of it until the buyer give up and decide to return them to China. Use the money wisely, I don't recommend China to buy them, why give money to asshole anyway, the Christie's auction is all about making money not cultural protection anyway ^^ oh wow I am such a Chinese...

Kaka: one of the basic ideas of communism is to "destroy the old world", so based on this and based on communist actions in other countries prior to 1949, it was not so far-fetched to imagine that cultural relics would be destroyed (although I doubt the person who took them took that into account).

In addition, I thought that Taiwan is part of China, and its people are part of the Chiense people... so how can you call them looters? They simply moved the stuff to another "province" until the fighting will end...

What the incentives of the businessmen buying those lost pieces of relics really are have very little to do with whom the relics should rightfully belows to. The fact is these relics are looted,and they should be placed in the museum of their home country ,rather than being used as tools of some greedy profiteers.And if the government is lobbying so hard and willing to arrange millions of dollars of money to buy some of them back,it must be serious about protection of them.There is no causal relationship between what people did back in crazy time of Cultural Revolution and what they will do now.

@Dror

Yes, i call them looter, because i don't believe that their original purpose is to 'protect' the relics by the time when they shipped the whole lot of things to Taiwan. How come I can not call other Chinese 'looters' if they 'brought' something away from the original places. I am not sure what is the future of Taiwan, I love my 'tongbao'(同胞）, I didn't accuse the ordinary Taiwaness people but the looters in the history.

Again, I don't accuse ordinary French people but the 'looters' in the history. There are too many relics scattered in the western world that should be returned to their home countries, yes place them in the museumss, and let people remember the history.

And what you said 'destroyed the world' thing, ok, seriously my dad is a CCP member, my friend is a CCP member, perhaps they are all not qualified to fullfill that idealogy. Sigh....

Also, there are business people who purely want to make profits out of the relics they purchased. I think.

@kaka,

But I can tell you from knowing many of the individuals who brought the treasures to Taiwan, that they truly believed they were protecting China's long history and culture and like most of the GMD mainlanders in those days, believed that they would soon bring those treasures back to the mainland once the illegitimate communist bandit peasant armies were removed. Not only physical relics but also scholars and the highest levels of China's intelligentsia as well as the best Chinese chefs relocated to Taiwan, knowing that there was no future for them under the CCP. Taiwan Chinese have a much more thorough education in Chinese (especially Gu Wen)than most mainlanders as a result of this happening and many people in Beijing have admitted that to me a lao wai!

But on another subject. Why should items like these belong to the "State"? no one even questions that one here, and does any "State" really represent its people?

@Terry

Thank you for telling me the real stories, and thank you for those good people who brought good wills on the relics and culture they protected in Taiwan. I am angry at those 'bad people' who looted things from another country, and treated them as cash rather than artefacts. I am not going do argue detailes of the history, like who are the good people and who are the bad ones. I didn't do a research on that, and I don't hate Taiwan, for which I have my relatives, friends lived there.

I admit that Taiwan may have better cultural education than mainlanders, and should acknowledge that back then Taiwan was wealthier than mainland, and those people who went to Taiwan a lot of them were educated, talented... I believe that a nation(ok..can't call TW a nation like that...) who has better economy base would have better education. I truly appreciate that people from Taiwan care about their roots and culture, but mainlander are not heartless, they are trying hard too, I mean at least at present time.

I don't really care what is the destination of the two brozen animal heads, and the so-called 'Yellow-Dick' news is like joke. But, I hope this auction news will raise the concern from ordinary Chinese people, will educate our kids that Yes, now We Do Care.

In terms of the state-ownership thing, sorry, I don't like it either, I suppose as long as it is owned by the state, it will have restriction on it to prevent illict trafficing of cultural relics. If it is owned by private section, I suppose greedy people would always chase profits. Several years ago, I watched a documentary of a Sweeden Embassador smuggling cultural relics out of China, and the things he sold to the museum were admired by some sort of royal families. A hidden camera recorded everything, I can't remember the detailes, sorry. But I was astonished by the fact that 'respected' people are doing bad things.

Sounds a bit irrelevant, at least the museum in Taiwan would never sell the things. But those scattered in the foreign country would face similar fates I am afraid. China is not rich enough to buy every single item back home, I do wish legal approach could help.

And lastly, maybe I can explain why state-ownership is important. Just like World-Heritage-Listed places will raise people's concern, state-owned cultural relics would raise more funding and more awareness, ordinary temples were smashed by the Red Guards, but the Forbidden City was protected, it was state-owned....that is my understanding.

There is a place called Beijing Cultural Heritage Protection Centre, I am not intending to advertise it. Just want to make lao wai know we Chinese also care about our culture. Think about LiangSicheng, LinHuiyin and a lot of Chinese who didn't leave mainland, not everybody left in China are evil CCP.

Sicerely,

Kaka: "...back then Taiwan was wealthier than mainland"

Sorry to burst your bubble, but people living in Taiwan still have a significantly higher GDP per capita, literacy rates, life expectancy rates, etc. China's total GDP is of course higher than Taiwan's, but this brings little comfort to the billion or so poor and uneducated people living in its midst.

So, still a long way to go for the mainland, and still plenty to learn from your tongbaos in the South China Sea.

I too believe that Taiwan was serious about protecting the ancient treasures, they repeatedly denied ccp's request to enter the museum because they fear the communists will crap their pants when they see the real stuff, and consequently use force to retrieve them, which says a lot about the quality of these treasures.

so if french keeps the relics in their museum and at least GIVE A SHIT about protecting them, I would gladly let them have it, because that way is easier for the whole world to understand chinese culture. but they apparently do not, which is what makes a lot chinese frustrated, and they made a ri-fucking-diculous joke about dalai going back to tibet, I mean what the fcuk does the relics have to do with dalai????

Peter:

What do you mean "they made" a joke about the dalai? It was Pierre Berge that made the comment and he's one person. "The French" don't have the relics, it was Berge that had them and there is no way he would give them up for free when he could sell them for millions of dollars. Who would? Rich people don't care.

I realize the Chinese media wants to paint this as another example of how the west is 'once again' screwing China, but lets get above the simplistic "they stole China's stuff and they won't give it back."Is this really front page news? I feel like a lot of people don't do a good job differentiating between individuals, companies, and governments and instead just focus on "them"

For the record Berge is a complete idiot.

@Dror

Thank you for correcting my mistake, but...oh well, my English isn't that good enough to express myself. My point is not that 'China is wealthier than Taiwan NOW', I 'd laugh at myself to death if I made such a claim. What I meant was a wealthier person would be able to look after his/belongings better, Taiwan can do that, a lot of Western nations can do that. And that logic 'Since we are better off than you, you'd better to give us your precious then we can look after them nicely also to educate people of your "culture"...' Well, I don't like this idea at all.

And Taiwan...oh well, why there is nobody accuse that the Taiwaness made the local aboriginal culture extinguished....And Tibet...oh well, Obrigines in Australia, American Indian in the State, Inuit in Canada, I hope each of them have a leader like DL to fight for its own people and land so hard so long....It seems like nobody is clean in this world...

And please treat me as 'individual' too, my ovice only represents myself.

Better eucation in China, long way to go...back to the topic, if the state decide to buy the brozen heads back home, I would strongly against it, because the 'State' should use those money for better education, better livelyhood for its people. When the nation and its people is richer, we may able to talk about culture protection...like western civilised people, drink coffee and appricate the drawings in the gallery...

Kaka: you are absolutely right. The world is a cynical place, full of hypocricy. Nations that kill all (or most) of the people in the areas they conquer get off the hook within a few years, since there's no one left to fight for the rights of the oppressed. Other nations, who leave the people in the newly conquered territories alive, get blamed for oppression and occupation. Tough luck.

Anyway, our friends in Europe will soon get a taste of their own medicines, when large minority populations in their midst will start asking for independence and/or try to force their way of life on the majority through violence and political pressure. Actually, it's already happening.

Who does these cultural relic belong to anyway? Does it belong to the Royal Family? the Chinese people? or does it belong long to the small number of Chinese that fled to Taiwan after the Civil War?

And for those who are praising the old Komington? There is a reason they lost the war. It not because the Communist is so powerful, but rather they don't have the support of the people. They are a corrupt government that soon replace by a government that people think will bring hope. At the end, the Chinese in mainland China comeback to a full cycle a government that is corrupted after the supposed changed. I smell a revolution in the horizon in China, and it is going to be as bloodly as the past.

oh screw revolutions. as if we haven't had enough of those.

anyway i don't think these heads are *that* important. and the CCP knows it, they are just trying to make a point. and as long as the statement gets to be made, why would they bother spend an extra cent? they never really wanted them so bad.
i read several years ago from Chinese historians about these heads when Stanley Ho bought them, and they admitted the heads are not of very high artistic values.
for sure they used to be priceless when they stood in Yuanming Yuan untouched. that sight is gone forever. without the architectural context they are just bad memories.
still, speaking of hypocrisy, i sincerely believe Berge beats China to that.

and it doesn't take a legal scholar to figure this out: you can always find a way to sue, sometimes you have a case, sometimes not really. how are normal preceedings so hard to comprehend when the plaintiff speaks for China?
people differ and fight over issues, interests and beliefs. and they take it to the court all the time. a recent case made its way to US supreme court, in which a high schooler unfurled a banner that said "Bong Hits for Jesus" during a parade- all a case should take are a plaintiff, a defendant, a cause and maybe precedents.

@Dror

Thanks. When Kevin Rudd the Aus PM said SORRY to Aborigines, I felt sad, what is the point? See those drunk, homeless Aborigines lying in the street of Cairns, and right next to them was the city's famous multicultural festival, an aboriginal girl wearing the school uniform was reading out her little essay enthusially on the stage..I heard some words like 'cultural diversity, harmony...etc.' But what is the point, they are not the orginal owner of their lands.

@k2001

I think cultural relics belong to everybody in this planet, so we'd better put them in the museum. Plus,I hope they will be placed in their home countries, but I doubt that those museums in Europe will become empty. So let's leave it like that.

@kaka

for aborigines, you could argue that only hard working diligent people deserve respect and help, I to some extent agree that too, but a government or a leader must consider things from a grand perspective. there are lots of lazy leechers who live on welfare or are outright robbing others but they are still the citizens of their nation, until they are in jail or dead, they ought to receive assistance from the government.

Yes peter you are right, only hard working diligent people deserve respect and help.

I heard the news that an aboriginal lady passed out at an interchange in Queensland, she was lying there ages until a few Japanese international students helped her out. It turned out that the lady was actually a lecturer of local university. She wasn't a drunkee or drug addict,but people just ignored her, I assumed that most passing by passengers thought she was one of the bums not deserving help.

What a sad world.